You are right, that wasn't a good argument. I apologize for my approach.
I do not understand how you get from "You can be raped without saying no" to "all heterosexual sex is potentially rape." For one thing, shouldn't it be "all sex is potentially rape"?
I believe that we should all live in the expectation that we will not have nonconsensual sex acted upon us. I believe that it is a reasonable burden to place on the sex-or to establish the consent of the sex-ee. (I observe that there's lots of different ways to establish that consent that do not involve the words "yes" or "no".)
I truly do not understand how this becomes "all sex is potentially rape". For one, all sex that has express consent isn't rape. All sex that has implicit consent is not rape. All sex that does not have consent is rape. The vast majority of sex seems to have express or implicit consent, and is therefore not rape, even in a context where most people are terrible about communicating verbally.
My definition of rape is nonconsensual sex. I'm aware that there's sticky wickets around "nonconsensual" and "sex" (and my particular sticky wicket is the whole "X can be raped by Y while Y is not raping X). In theoretical conversations, I'm not terribly interested in fault or responsibility; I think the conversation about "How to not be raped" is different from "who's at fault for rape" and very, very different from "how should people behave".
I think it is both a good and bad thing that the word rape carries such baggage. It's bad because it's really hard to talk about. But it's good because it's a really big important thing that people should get angry about. I think we should call nonconsensual sex rape because that's what I think it is, and I'm a big fan of calling a thing by its name. People get angry and upset when something they think is not-rape is called rape, and that's fair; but from my perspective, they are often whitewashing the thing that is not-rape.
Some things that rape is not, to me: - Something that must be prosecuted - Something that always has a bad guy - An event that always has a the same effect on people: some people are profoundly affected, and some aren't - Something that's easily legislated or criminalized - Something that exists in a vacuum.
Also, so I don't have to make a whole nother post elsewhere: I think it is really, really good for people to learn to be assertive and say no. I want more people to be good at that, and I want more people to respect and encourage that behavior. Right now, the cultural feedback loops seem to run in the other direction. But sometimes, being coy is the correct survival choice, and sometimes people aren't able to be assertive when they maybe should be. Their choices for their behavior are their responsibility. However, even when their choices may contribute to a negative outcome, that outcome is *not* their fault, or their responsibility. The difference between "walking home half naked and drunk" and "walking home half naked and drunk and getting raped" is in the choices that *someone else* makes.
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regna
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-18 11:42 pm (UTC)I do not understand how you get from "You can be raped without saying no" to "all heterosexual sex is potentially rape." For one thing, shouldn't it be "all sex is potentially rape"?
I believe that we should all live in the expectation that we will not have nonconsensual sex acted upon us. I believe that it is a reasonable burden to place on the sex-or to establish the consent of the sex-ee. (I observe that there's lots of different ways to establish that consent that do not involve the words "yes" or "no".)
I truly do not understand how this becomes "all sex is potentially rape". For one, all sex that has express consent isn't rape. All sex that has implicit consent is not rape. All sex that does not have consent is rape. The vast majority of sex seems to have express or implicit consent, and is therefore not rape, even in a context where most people are terrible about communicating verbally.
My definition of rape is nonconsensual sex. I'm aware that there's sticky wickets around "nonconsensual" and "sex" (and my particular sticky wicket is the whole "X can be raped by Y while Y is not raping X). In theoretical conversations, I'm not terribly interested in fault or responsibility; I think the conversation about "How to not be raped" is different from "who's at fault for rape" and very, very different from "how should people behave".
I think it is both a good and bad thing that the word rape carries such baggage. It's bad because it's really hard to talk about. But it's good because it's a really big important thing that people should get angry about. I think we should call nonconsensual sex rape because that's what I think it is, and I'm a big fan of calling a thing by its name. People get angry and upset when something they think is not-rape is called rape, and that's fair; but from my perspective, they are often whitewashing the thing that is not-rape.
Some things that rape is not, to me:
- Something that must be prosecuted
- Something that always has a bad guy
- An event that always has a the same effect on people: some people are profoundly affected, and some aren't
- Something that's easily legislated or criminalized
- Something that exists in a vacuum.
Also, so I don't have to make a whole nother post elsewhere: I think it is really, really good for people to learn to be assertive and say no. I want more people to be good at that, and I want more people to respect and encourage that behavior. Right now, the cultural feedback loops seem to run in the other direction. But sometimes, being coy is the correct survival choice, and sometimes people aren't able to be assertive when they maybe should be. Their choices for their behavior are their responsibility. However, even when their choices may contribute to a negative outcome, that outcome is *not* their fault, or their responsibility. The difference between "walking home half naked and drunk" and "walking home half naked and drunk and getting raped" is in the choices that *someone else* makes.